Deathdrop, Yautja, 8 years ago

@GF: Oh, I wasn't mad at you, dude. The idiot in question is the person who called Concrete "cis-scum" or whatever.

@Bloo: I NO RIGHT.

concretehunter, Yautja, 8 years ago

Wait waitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwait.

So because I'm not a woman in a mans body or whatever... I'm scum?

Well if she thinks that then i have no idea what i can do.

DeathWraith, Yautja, 8 years ago

@DD Well, you know, the term "feminism" is pretty dumb itself. The idea that "FEMINism" is an appropriate term for a movement for equality between genders is as sound as the idea that black people can't be racist, because they're black.

-Bloo-, Yautja, 8 years ago

@CH: You're cisgendered, but you're not "ciscum." People who identify as the gender they were born as aren't bad because of that fact, and anyone who tells you that is a jackass, like the person you were talking to.

@DW: The reason it's called feminism is because that's the gender that's lower in power. If it's called Equality or Humanism, then it would downplay the need to give women more power. It would be like giving a "Save the whales!" organization the name "Save all the animals in general, even though everything that isn't a whale is much better off than whales!"

(I don't actually know how much help whales need, nor am I equating women to whales, but you get the idea.)

I mean, of COURSE it should be equal, but why would I give an equal amount of apples to two people if one of them already has a hundred?

About the racism thing - that's not what feminism is trying to say at all. Actual feminists (not "feminazis" or extremists, which unfortunately are the most vocal and well-known types) try to tell people that women CAN, in fact, do things like be sexist. They're not trying to say they can't be sexist because they're women. That's fucking stupid and I agree with you how fucked that is.

Deathdrop, Yautja, 8 years ago

EDIT: As usual, Bloo said everything I was trying to say better than I did and without writing a fucking novel about it. The whale thing in particular-nicely done.


@DW: OK, this ended up as a "in order to tell you that story I must tell you THIS story" kind of thing, so my apologies in advance. It's barely even a reaction to what you wrote at this point. Please feel free to correct me if I've misquoted you at all. I ramble a lot, so if you TL;DR me, I'll understand.

Saying that feminism as a concept is sexist because it concerns itself with women is kind of like saying the civil rights movement is racist because it largely sought to empower black people. This is the "Why isn't there a WHITE entertainment television, huh?!" argument.

When most sensible people talked about "black power," they were not suggesting that black people should be elevated above everyone else (there were exceptions, of course. They were suggesting that black people should be empowered (equal protection under the law, anti-discrimination measures, etc.), or, put it another way, raised up to the position of EQUALS with the white majority. That's different then some KKK fuckhead yelling "white power" because the context is completely fucked. One's saying "we should be empowered so that we can enjoy the same rights as everyone else," and the other is saying "hey, this having more rights than everyone else is pretty cool, let's keep doing that."

Black pride is about telling little girls that, no, your hair isn't disgusting just because it isn't straight and shiny. It's telling people "hey, we actually DON'T look like gorillas, and I get the feeling we could be just as good at the stuff white people do if we got a fair shake."

White pride is completely the opposite. "No but seriously, we're totally better than the other races. Fuck those guys." How can a little kid grow up being ashamed of being white? Batman is white. Superman is white. Every good guy on every TV show is white (this is starting to change, obviously, but emphasis on "starting") most authority figures (police, government, businessmen-Hell, The President until very recently) are white. White is the assumed norm. We're already plenty represented and empowered; we don't need to be told we aren't scum, because the overwhelming cultural narrative doesn't suggest that to begin with.

Similar deal with feminism. Since the sexes weren't equal, there was a need to elevate women to an equal position in society. They were saying, in effect, "We women should be of an equal position to men." The concept is that women should be treated with the respect that men already were. Is the word kind of a vestigial flipper from another time? Yes. Are some branches of feminism completely retarded? Holy shit yes. That doesn't mean the whole thing was a bad idea. Forget the clunky word for a second. The feminist MOVEMENT is largely of the opinion that women and men should be afforded equal rights and respect.

Actually, I'll even defend the word on the basis that any women's rights movement will necessarily be dealing with issues like marriage, pregnancy, abortion rights, etc etc etc. The idea is that men and women should be equal. Getting to that idea requires changing the position of women in society. That's where feminism comes in.

So now that I've written a goddamn thesis paper, DID ANYONE SEE THE PLANET OF THE APES TRAILER HOLY SHIT.

@Concrete: "Cisgender" doesn't mean you're scum. It isn't an insult; It's a completely neutral term signalling that (forgive the touchy-feely hippy words) your gender identity and your biological sex match. It basically means "people who aren't transgender." The idiot you were talking to equates that with being "scum" because they are very stupid.

Deathdrop, Yautja, 8 years ago



DeathWraith, Yautja, 8 years ago

Yeah I get the reasoning behind it, but I'm saying it's flawed. It stems from sentiment, not logic. You want people to have equal rights and get equal treatment, not to be compensated for their misfortune by getting extra rights. Also, I don't think there's any word ending in "-ism" that does not describe a belief in the superiority of one thing over all others or a preference for one thing over all others.

Deathdrop, Yautja, 8 years ago

"You want people to have equal rights and get equal treatment, not to be compensated for their misfortune by getting extra rights."

Well... Of course. All people being equal (legally speaking and so forth) in society is the end goal. But just saying "everyone should be equal" is kind of useless. You can't fight literally every injustice at once. You pick your battles. The gay rights movement "fights" on one front, the transgender community fights on another, the anti-defamation league is doing their thing over here, etc. That's not even getting into people trying to cure diseases and end poverty. Divide and conquer seems like a pretty logical strategy to me.

What would be an example of "extra rights" in your mind?

"Also, I don't think there's any word ending in "-ism" that does not describe a belief in the superiority of one thing over all others or a preference for one thing over all others."

Don't you think that's a little simplistic? If anything (and this is purely my experience; maybe you've experienced different), these different groups tend to be more, not less, sympathetic to the plights of other minorities.

All the feminists I've met (and I worked at the campus women's center for a year, so I've met quite a few) have seemed more concerned/aware/passionate about the plight of other maligned groups. There's crossover with the GLBTQ (I think that's the whole acronym now) community, obviously, but I also saw a lot more ethnic, religious, and even political diversity there then elsewhere on campus. Granted, that's one college campus, but I think as a whole, these "isms" get along just fine.

Again, it isn't that they have a preference for women OVER men, it's that they're concentrating on one specific area of a much wider... is "project" the word? I don't wanna say "battle," but in a world where a government official can say ON CAMERA that the homoqueers is comin' fer us an' that's why fer we need guns (I'm exaggerating, obviously, but the basic message was there) it can seem like a one.

EDIT: And actually, a lot of feminists rail against harmful gender stereotypes on both sides of the coin (IE: Boys not being allowed to express themselves in any appreciable way, clear-cut gender roles, that sort of thing) so the idea that feminists value men less is also flawed.

EDIT2: And just for the record, I'm not saying there isn't some ungodly stupid stuff spawned from certain branches of radical feminism. I've seen it claimed that all heterosexual sex is rape, that crossdressers are raping women's bodies somehow, that pregnancy should be made medically impossible... And other such nonsense.

But then, the Nation of Islam believes that white people are a race of devils created by an evil scientist. That doesn't mean it's a commonly accepted view within the black community; every group has fringe nuts.

concretehunter, Yautja, 8 years ago

Don't women have more rights than men?

-Lower sentences in prison

-More rights over children

-Less likely to be arrested and charged with sexual assault (even if magnitude was equal to male commiting same crime)

-In most countrys cant be drafted

-"Women and children first"

-Are less likely to be arrested for physical violence

-Are less likely to be arrested for domestic abuse

And sure rape is a real concern, But that's just a part of life. When i walk out on a dark night i'm scared of getting stabbed. Isn't this just another thing that we as adults should prepare ourselves for in the modern day?

I mean its like having a child and never explaining to them cars or roads. When they first go to walk to school they just run into the road and get hit.

"Don't teach my child about road safety, teach cars to not hit kids!"

And after reading into it apparently we should be "teaching men not to rape". Now as a man i don't think i've ever had the impression that it's ok to rape. In-fact growing up i was always taught rape is the most horrid thing you can do to a person, and i don't think i know a single person who would disagree. I think we already have equal rights between men and women, If anything we need men to have more rights in terms of child custody and prison terms.

Buck up kids, We're in the real world now.

tawganator, Yautja, 8 years ago

I'm just going to ignore all this serious stuff and just live in the "real" world.


Deathdrop, Yautja, 8 years ago

(Just to start off, I hope I'm not coming off as passive aggressive or dismissive here. I'm not looking for a fight, I just think that this is a really interesting discussion and kind of want to keep it going.)

Most of the things you've listed there are things I've personally heard feminists decrying. There are feminists that argue that women should be drafted as well (as well as some that say no one, male or female, should be). All the things you've listed seem to me to be symptoms of sexism, and feminists have argued for years that sexism cuts both ways.

As to the rape and domestic violence arguments, yes, it is completely fucked up that female-on-male cases get ignored, but I'm not sure how you can blame feminism for that. Surely it stems from the "understanding" that women are weaker and more submissive than men? I mean, how often is women punching men played for laughs in movies? The humor comes from the apparent ridiculousness of a woman having any physical power over a man.

So much of that shit is based on old-fashioned gender roles, which feminism more often than not seeks to overturn. So... Basically, I'm not understanding how you can say feminism has been a negative development. Yes, there is stupidity, and yes, there have been slip-ups along the way, but overall? I think the effects have been more good than bad. Again, I by no means agree with all of it, but I think the societal balancing act is in a better state now than it was 50 years ago.

I guess my point is that yes, there are absolutely contexts in modern society where men get the shit end of the stick (the biases in child support/divorce/custody cases are appalling), but let's also remember that shit like this still exists:

There's still work to be done, is I guess what I'm saying.



-Bloo-, Yautja, 8 years ago

@DD: Don't ever sell yourself short, dude. I think I love you right now.

@CH: Wow.

"-More rights over children"

That's because our society think a women's place is at home." With the children. Not doing a "real job."

"-Less likely to be arrested and charged with sexual assault"

Because of the sentiment that "women can't rape" and "guys can't get raped, lmao!!!!!!"

"-"Women and children first"
-Are less likely to be arrested for physical violence
-Are less likely to be arrested for domestic abuse
-Lower sentences in prison"


"And sure rape is a real concern, But that's just a part of life."


"Don't teach my child about road safety, teach cars to not hit kids!"


"If anything we need men to have more rights in terms of child custody and prison terms."

That's EXACTLY what feminists are trying to do. They're TRYING to give men those rights. What the fuck kind of feminists have you been around? What the fuck kind of WOMEN have you been around? Do you think they're all man-hating lesbians that do nothing but yell obscure poetry at straight cis men?

You're calling us out for thinking women need more rights, and yet you begin your defense with "Men have less rights and here's why I think so!" Did you not read DD's post about "KKK" versus "Black Rights"?? Do you not realize you just stepped into "dudebro" territory? Do you not realize you just stepped WAY the fuck into "Men's Rights Activist" territory?

I like you CH, but please step the fuck off with the "listen here, kids..."

I realize I sound like an extremist right now, yelling and shit, but I'm pissed the fuck off because someone really close to me got raped around Christmas and everyone was trying to blame it on her. It's just a part of life to rape a girl that's been drinking, right? It's just a part of life to ask her why she was drinking rather than to ask the guy why he was raping, right? This wasn't in an alleyway and this wasn't a random person. She was with a good friend of ours. We've known each other for years. They were at his house in his room watching a movie. A COMEDY movie. There were other people in the house. They weren't alone. He's a piece of shit misogynist and I should have known that before I introduced them.

What the FUCK world are you in where there's equality? Buddy, I know I'm in the real world because equality doesn't exist.

Edit: Ok, look, I really do still like you CH, but the phrase "Don't women have more rights than men?" is just...

Deathdrop, Yautja, 8 years ago

OK, just a reminder everyone-let's try to keep this friendly. I'm not talking to anyone in particular, just generally. No reason to let real life sociopolitical opinions get in the way of space monster punching-based bonding.

-Bloo-, Yautja, 8 years ago

...Shit. I know, I know. I don't want to suddenly stop logging on, and I don't want DW or CH to suddenly stop coming here, either. They're way too interesting for that.

I'm not gonna delete my post, but I didn't realize you had a better-constructed post before I clicked "submit." So if you guys are still gonna argue about this, do it with DD, not me. I get too angry about this shit. (Not to leave you hanging or anything, DD...)

Edit: OK, I guess I should be responsible for any "flame wars" that follow, since neither DW or CH were acting hostile before I did. I'm gonna stay outta this discussion from here.

-Bloo-, Yautja, 8 years ago

"Bloo, I think by now you have to stay. You already entered it."

Nah, I feel like it won't get anywhere good if I'm just yelling at people I otherwise like talking to.

If it's gonna continue, it should be the kind of argument DD was trying to have: calm, and more like a debate rather than a shitstorm of uppercase letters and cussing. Sure I can handle that most of the time, but when it comes to subject matter like this, I might slip (which was the case with my post at the top of this page). I still mean what I said, but I don't want to escalate this into a flame war.

And it was going fine without me anyway, so I'm backing out. Talking about this stresses me out and it's all that's been on my mind for the past few hours. I'm just gonna sleep.

Dronehive, Yautja, 8 years ago

good idea. I'll have over 2 hrs of sleep!!! lol

tawganator, Yautja, 8 years ago

I have got a major craving for some tacos. Mmm tacos.

DeathWraith, Yautja, 8 years ago

"Don't you think that's a little simplistic?"

Yeah, that's the point. Notice the misconceptions that exist around feminism in the public mind. Most people won't educate themselves on a subject. The first impression is what will shape their opinions. They'll hear or read "feminism" and think "oh, it's a movement about women" and from there will associate it with other similar words and decide what they think it means. Most people will decide that it's a movement for female superiority. And this is what I'm saying about extra rights and it stemming from sentiment. The name "feminism" is meant to give women comfort by giving them the right to hold the title for an equality movement. It's fucking stupid. There are disadvantaged men and women of all races everywhere, but the title enables women as the symbol of equality, thus enabling such extremist ideas as that only through women can there be equality and that men are absolutely disposable. And this is for a MAJORITY of people who are not willing or not able to educate themselves. It would be great for it to be explained as a movement for the rights of women, which I think is how it was in the beginning, but with the way it's explained now, the choice of words leads to a set of conflicting concepts.

feminism => about women
--------------------------------------> does not fit => feminism is a lie => feminists are liars
equality => about men and women

It doesn't matter that it's a simplistic interpretation, it matters that it's a common one. Look, watch this

The word "feminism" does a poor job of advertising the movement. "Gay rights movement"? Great name. It tells you all you need to know. It doesn't matter how good the movement is as long as the name does a poor job of advertising it. I mean think of the title "Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning". The game is amazing, fucking amazing, one of the best games I've ever played. But the company went bankrupt after releasing it because no one bought it because the title worked to repel rather than attract. Just the same, I think the combination of the words "feminism" and "equality" works to repel because it gives a shitload of wrong ideas.

EDIT: Notice how the debate actually shifted to discussing wrong ideas since I last posted. It's that easy and I blame it on the poor combination of title and description.
Even though it practically means the same thing, the second variant leads to misinterpretation and is easily hijacked.

Deathdrop, Yautja, 8 years ago

@Bloo: Dude, no one's gonna leave just because we had a debate. This has been remarkably calm given what we're discussing.

I guess I just don't perceive there to be that great a difference between "women getting equal rights to men" and "genders being equal." I understand there is one, but I feel like we're arguing about a very minor semantic point. If the only criticism of it is that the name can give the wrong idea to, as you put it, uneducated people... Well, how is that anyone else's problem? If people want to educate themselves on what it is, the resources are available. Not to everyone, granted, but do we do away with movements because people don't understand the words used to describe them?

I agree with your point that people flip the fuck out upon hearing the word "feminism/ist," but again, I don't see how that invalidates it as a concept.

-Bloo-, Yautja, 8 years ago

@DD: I hope so. Maybe I just feel like my words were harsher than they actually were (and they definitely were before I rewrote the entire post, that's for sure).

Anyway, I know I said I wasn't gonna get involved anymore, but I feel much better now. AND I can actually get behind the idea of renaming feminism to something clearer. Indeed, the name alone sets off a bunch of misconceptions just because it may not be clear to the majority what the term "feminism" actually entails.

It's like the LGBTQA acronym. It's recently been renamed to MOGII, which stands for "Marginalized Orientations, Gender Identity, and Intersex." The reason it was changed is because a lot of people were confused about what LGBTQA actually meant (more specifically, whether or not the A stood of Asexual or Ally, which was the dumbest fucking argument ever because allies aren't a queer group). I know "MOGII" might just add more confusion because it's relatively new and its status as an acronym means people won't immediately know what it actually stands for when they first see it, but "Marginalized Orientations, Gender Identity, and Intersex" is much clearer.

The same can be done for feminism. I just wouldn't know what to rename it, because "Equality" would be going backwards about the whole clarity thing.