Contradiction Theory

AVPFREAK: I'm fairly certain by "different colors" you mean different degrees of heat. Predators see body heat (infrared is their visible spectrum), which is represented by different levels of color, as shown when the pred was originally hunting in Predator. Without its mask the heat readings its eyes picked up were overexposed, however, causing its senses to overload and view everything as red. In Predator 2 that wasn't the case, but it was still seeing only body heat.



"If anything in this life is certain, if history has taught us anything, it is that you can kill anyone." - Michael Corleone

Well, I'm not totally certain about that Crow, but Deathdrop stated something a while back about the original Predator being colorblind. Because in the first movie, the predator saw only red without his helmet. In the second one, the new Yautja could pick up many different colors, similar to his mask vision. Every human being has different eyesight; maybe the predators do as well. And if Iseijin is correct about the caste system, then the three preds in AVP, the "rich kid" preds, had better eyesight and better health than the ones in the original films. They can still see motion anyway, I think.



~For centuries, human beings have worshipped these beasts as gods, beasts that will forever haunt us, beasts waging an eternal war.....~
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I still find the BIGGEST contradiction to the AvP movie to be the pred's eyesight...correct me if I'm wrong, but they can only sense body heat without their masks, according to both Pred 1 and 2.

Now if this is true, why is it that Scar could see the xenomorphs without his mask?! According to Aliens, a xenomorph doesn't give off body heat! *Cringe* SO many things wrong with that movie...I think it was meant to be just a flat-out action movie, and I am starting to seriously doubt its credability...

Off topic, I know, but this fact is REALLY starting to bug me!



"If anything in this life is certain, if history has taught us anything, it is that you can kill anyone." - Michael Corleone

I’m not saying that your response is erroneous, but I am skeptical to simply using what the movies have shown us as the bible-like proof of what we know – or need to know – about the Predators. After all, I am using both movies and novels as reference; with a bit of added speculation to fill in some gaps. True, I have no right to strut around like a peacock in heat claiming that what I say is correct and cannot be questioned, simply taken into mind as a possible answer to those queries that the movies and novel and even comic books and games cannot answer– in fact, I rather enjoy a good discussion struggle. I’ll play the devil’s advocate to your responses:

â€Â1. Chopper: I've heard many say that this pred wasn't experienced enough because he decided to kill Lex, but she was about to get an axe-like weapon to use on Celtic. Chopper saw this and realized that Lex was formidable. And some have also said that he could've fought Grid as he was lifted by his tail. Well, he seemed paralyzed. Maybe Grid's tail secreted a powerful stunning toxin.â€Â

Ok, let us start from the beginning of AvP. There is no denying that Celtic, Chopper, and Scar were Unblooded. Anderson may have stated that these particular specimen were older, but an Unblooded Yautja, no matter the age, is still considered equal in strength/experience amongst other Unblooded – this may in fact be superstition amongst Yautja. With that in mind we may add that the Yautja trio may have had better training that the rest of their Blockbuster counterparts, which would undoubtedly give them an advantage for their Blooding ritual. Chopper, specifically, seemed to be on the lower rank of the group. One only need to look at how this particular youth seemed to always be at the end of the pack, literally picking off what was left to him by Scar and Celtic (killing the man after he became injured from falling down the tube; Scar and Celtic walked past him but Chopper finished him off). With Lex, I highly doubt he saw her as a truly formidable opponent, but when a Yautja is a aware how unpredictable humans can be and saw that a human was reaching for a weapon, well, it kinda put him on edge and merely wanted to discourage the human from getting an advantage, no matter how small. And I believe that anyone – human or Yautja – that had an Alien tail implanted through their chest cavity may become shocked enough to be paralyzed by the blow. I doubt Chopper, or anyone, could react under such a situation while his mind was stunned from the unexpected attack.

â€Â2. Celtic: I agree wholeheartedly that this was the most experienced Yautja warrior in the film. He fought HARD, and if you have seen the unrated edition of AVP, you know that he was apparently the leader because he was seen directing Scar to go a certain direction after the chestburster sequence. The thing that makes everyone classify him as inexperienced is of course when he had the chance to kill Grid in the net, but instead simply walked up to him suspensefully. Overconfidence doesn't mean inexperience, in some cases it hints at the direct opposite, but the thing is that he is a PREDATOR. He, unlike xenomorphs, has emotions and standards. After a long and painful fight, it was natural for this predator to be so into himself for finally, after years of practice, defeating an alien (temporarily), to want the creature to suffer pain caused by the net. Either that, or the predator was just showing something aliens do not possess - fear. I'm not saying at all that aliens are invincible, but they are pretty darn formidable and intimidating to a creature like a predator without his plasma gun. I know for a fact that if a human was facing something like a tiger, with his shotgun lost, and only having weapons like knives and pellet guns, that he would be having at least some fear. That is a weakness of the Yautja. They have emotion. But even with that weakness, I have no doubt in my mind that all of the aliens in AvP would've been killed by all three warriors if they had had their higher calibur guns that were stolen by the humans. As Deathdrop said, aliens are not invincible. They are simply formidable, but can be killed.â€Â

Finally, someone who agrees that Celtic was the top dog of the group and not Scar, as so many fans had been lead to believe. Celtic, the enigma Predator. Why DID he go for the suspenseful kill? Let us think that this Yautja was trained under the same Leader as both Scar and Chopper did (Anderson said that these three Yautja belonged to different clans). Let us think that a good Leader would teach his students the dangers out the Hard Meat: barbed tails, claws, dual maws, acid blood… Would this Leader also managed to point out that most of their weapons and armor, like any Unblooded’s gear, would NOT be acid-proof? Even if Celtic had never even known of the Alien’s acidic blood he would not only have gotten a neat surprise when his chest armor started melting away after his Hard Meat opponent spewed the toxic concoction from its tail wound; one may want to believe that some alarm may have gone off in his head saying, “Note to self: Metal does not work.†What made Celtic believe that a Net, given to an Unblooded and knowing the way it would cut into the prey’s flesh, would be enough to subdue the Alien while being aware of its corrosive blood? Overconfidence? Maybe. He may have been the boss of this little pack, but such a big mistake would not have made him a good Leader had he survived.

â€Â3. Scar: This predator was a die-hard individual in a heavy combat situation. Even without his gun, he $ucked it up, and obliterated a hive of xenos. And before then, he was doing it more honorably, listening intently with great experience as an alien came at him quietly from the wall behind him. He was experienced in fighting in my opinion, but his emotions of a LONG day of brutal war got to him as he desperately tried to bring the Queen down with Lex's help and was pierced by the Queen's serpentine barbed tail. He, like all of the predators in this film, fought with great honor, such as when he took a huge leap into the air and stabbed the Queen in the head with his combi-stick.â€Â

While Chopper seemed to be overcompensating for something and Celtic became a little too confident, Scar seemed to be the only level-headed one of the group. He knew what to do and how to do it, but he seemed rather clueless when it came to how to properly deal with an Alien infestation. Let’s think upon this: The Blooding Temple was located on a frozen wasteland – considering after the major civilization wipeout of ancient times – where three Unblooded students had to pass or fail the Hard Meat trial with what seems to be a Yautja Mothership hovering above. Should the Aliens escape, their options would be limited. There would be little to no hosts available in such a harsh environment. The Mothership or more experienced Warriors could have very easily picked them off from there; maybe kill the queen and bring in a new Matriarch for the next Hard Meat trial. The students get killed by the Aliens, the Aliens get killed by the Mothership, and the Blooding temple maintains standing. Seems a pretty fool-proof way to deal with an infestation for me. Scar, on the other hand, panicked. After he became Blooded, his responsibility to the temple ended. There was nothing left but to fight his way to freedom to save his own skin, with the help of a certain female human in tow that is. No one questions help; not even a Yautja. Someone is willing to lend you a hand in a life-or-death situation, you don’t sit down with them and ask them “Why?†You grab them by the hand and say, “Let’s go!†Lex helped Scar, and Scar helped Lex. There was a mutual understanding there. But who could safely say that Scar wouldn’t have abandoned Lex, or even kill her, had he survived?

*Sits on Sara's head, tail curling in a heart shape, whispering "Sara's here, Sara's here, Sara's here..." over and over again."

*Coughs* Anyways...

Something tells me Scar was the b*tch of the group… What? He was. Can you not imagine Celtic say to Scar, “Get my mask, now,†and Scar goes and retrieves it without a word in protest? Or is that just me? I just can’t see Chopper as the lowest of that trio, there’s just something about him that tells me there may be more bite than bark in that one. Almost as if Celtic disliked both Scar and Chopper, but detested Scar more than Chopper and to make himself the big bad boy of the group Celtic makes Chopper his crony, and Scar is left as part of the group but just tolerated because of it. Of course, when it came down to the Blooding temple there was no room for childish prejudices so they more or less worked cooperatively. Maybe that’s why Celtic was so eager to kill Grid and do so with a knife; it’ll mean coming back to the rest of the group, Scar and Chopper probably still struggling to even find a Hard Meat drone, and Celtic can raise his kill in front of them as if saying, “See? I’m the baddest! I got my first kill before any of you! Neither of you can question that I’m the boss!†A major ego-boost for this fellow. Unfortunately, Celtic's boldness was his undoing. If I know my Yautja, Hunting for the sake of showing off is anything but honorable. He got what he deserved.

*Sigh* Too bad that the movie was so fast paced and that characters were killed so quickly, no time to savor their personalities. Even the movie novel lacked to fill in these gaps.

Anderscum was wrong in almost every aspect of this movie including this one. In pred 2 the predator waslks over to his trolphy stand or whatever and in the display there was a alien skull ( along with many others ) in the avp books the way for a young pred to become a hunter is to kill his first alien and then mark his forehead with the blood for the first kill. Scar is seen doing this in avp and although none of the original preds have the mark i think those movies were made before that idea was thought up. also those preds were hunting on their own and killed many humans while the other preds from avp ed.

"This time the B!tch Is Back

lol Off topic is my middle name and I have attend to draw funny sides of serious things out. You're right about the character development, I left as an outcast while watching the movie and I didn't feel for it. Even there was great ideas like the blooding the implementation was stupid in my mind. Good flick but didn't really give much to think 'cos very much were spelled for the audience instead of keeping them guessing and biting their nails.

Iseijin's theory of castes (spelling) were interesting. I'm about to believe the clans have different cultures, maybe not just one dogma to believe. Granted, the hunt, but somehow jungle and city pred were more down to Earth than the ones in AvP. The castes would explain it but I don't know, strict social hierarchy between members, especially clans, would pull some of the viciousness and wildness away from them. Well at least in my mind, I've always honored the unpredictability of the creatures.

http://www.freewebs.com/predatoress/ghosteyes.wmv

Are we allowed to use html in our posts?

Let's try now...

Younglings, younglings, young males in packs. Vicious, powerful yet stupid combination lol I can smell the testosterone... In other words - AMISBOYS!

*cough cough cough* ok this is getting a bit off topic lol

Never off topic when there's Yautja to be blooded!

Although, because of the extensive cuts to the movie, we never get to see any really interesting character development; not only for the Predator trio but also for Predators in general. I feel left in the dark, meh.

EDIT: SARA! *Huggles!* Hey, I was wondering where my Yin went, lol.

I pop in here every now and then when there's a good debate to be had =)

^- I had the same intuition over these chaps, probably the way they were introduced in the film. Celtic were first in the real action as you could wait from young, bold and wible bit stupid leader, Chopper were always in the same shots with him following him around and then Scar made a bit of difference to the others. Like in horse pack or any else there's always a proteges of the leader and then there's individual spirits ranked down. But Scar was young and inclined of influences from the way he relied to Lex unlike if he would've been already selfconfident hunter.

Younglings, younglings, young males in packs. Vicious, powerful yet stupid combination lol I can smell the testosterone... In other words - AMISBOYS!

*cough cough cough* ok this is getting a bit off topic lol

http://www.freewebs.com/predatoress/ghosteyes.wmv

“It was Scar that killed Quinn at the bottom of the tunnel, not chopper.â€Â

My apologies, then. I must have confused Scar and Chopper in that scene.

As for the Predators’ different eye visions, I have a theory. I believe the Yautja evolved on a planet with a different light spectrum. Whereas they could see perfectly in this spectrum, humans under the same conditions would either see in some sort of extremely vague infrared, ultraviolet, or go completely blind. Predators who come to earth must suffer through this reverse condition. Where humee fine, the Predators go blind (yes, that is supposed to rhyme). Hence the need for the mask; not only does it provide the creature a breathable gas, but it also allows them to “see†in an alien spectrum that would allow them a limited vision at best. If that is somehow proven to be true then we can safely assume that Yautja can see in color, but only on their own spectrum.

When the Yautjas remove their mask, it would be the equivalent of opening your eyes in a dark room. Black at first, but gradually your eyes become accustomed to the lack of light and you are able to “see†a bit in the dark. Same with Predators; they remove their mask and traces of infrared can still be seen with their eyes because of the prolonged exposure to infrared vision, but it clashes with the Earth’s natural spectrum, therefore their vision is somewhat clouded. I’m willing to wager that if any Yautja would be forced to see in the human’s light spectrum, then their eyes would somewhat accustom to it and could see better than with the infrared vision alone. Dark room effect. I’m not saying that they would see perfectly the same way we do, after all, they’re in a different planet, but that odd infrared ghost trace after immediate mask removal wouldn’t be as strong. On that note, if you really want to a Predator off then make them remove their mask and immediately place a bright flashlight on their face – that’ll effectively eye-rape the ers and keep them momentarily blind for much longer than would a human.

EDIT: SARA! *Huggles!* Hey, I was wondering where my Yin went, lol.

Iseijin always has the ability to say what I would say in debates such as these. ;P

As for me, I too considered Celtic to be the "leader" whilst Chopper was more like a underling to Celtic. It almost felt like a Yautja version of Mice and Men: You've got George, the smart leader and Lenny, the idiot who tags along. Somewhat bold example but when toned down I think you get the idea.

Scar to me was the underdog. With Celtic and Chopper out of the way, he was forced to act on his own accord. I highly doubt Celtic and Chopper would allow Scar to grab Lex while running out of the pyramid. If anything, they would of probably cast her to the Xenos.

As for the "relationship" of Scar and Lex, Scar was nothing more that morbidly curious. If he had survived he would of probably left her, but however, he might of made sure she made it back to the Piper Maru so she could return to civilization. That is the least he could do to honor her as a warrior besides blooding her. "You saved my skin, now I save yours."

U make some very good points Iseijin. Anyway, the way I see it is:

Chopper: most likely the most inexperienced of the group, we never really saw what he was capable of doing though, as we never saw him kill anyone in the movie (it was Scar that killed Quinn at the bottom of the tunnel, not chopper) the move to stop lex from getting her hands on the ice pick was a smart one, but why it was necessery to kill her is beyond me. She was hardly a threat without the weapon, she was cowering up against the pillar, defenceless when he was about to kill her.

Celtic: defenantly seemed like the most experienced pred of the 3 to me. He had fighting skill no doubt, as he was besting grid for the majority of the fight using his bare hands, only actually utilising his wristblades to sever the xenomorph's tail. In the end though his overconfidence led to his undoing, but really, the first 2 preds made this mistake aswell, they had their foes beat, but gave them time to recouperate, & payed dearly for that.

Scar: I have very mixed feelings about Scar. On the one hand, there are a few scenes where he executes his prey with utmost precision & ease, like when he took the head off of the drone climbing down the wall with his shuriken before the creature could even react. On the other hand, he seemed fairly careless, & he was constantly getting jumped by aliens, a lack of awareness. First it was the facehugger, then a drone, then another drone afterwards which caused him to lose his plasmacaster, then finally the queens tail. Also, the amount of help he seemed to need from lex was embarrasing. She must've saved him 3 or 4 times during the coarse of the movie, seems rather pathetic to me.

Iseijin:
I just can’t see Chopper as the lowest of that trio, there’s just something about him that tells me there may be more bite than bark in that one.

true that iseijin. i always wondered 'chopper's' involvement in the hunt becuase when taking screen shots from the film, i can see what looks like human skulls adorning his armor along with smaller skulls. they are on sceptor looking items. i posted pics before and have them.

and no, i've never believed the explanation andersome gave making his yautja older then the yatuja in the previous films. what a loser, really.


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I think They were atleast intermediate, cos All those human and alien skulls on Pred2. And in AvP how long did Celtic and Chopper last? not that long. Scar was an adult I guess. but Celtic and Chopper weren't very old or skilled I think. Pred1 and 2 were my Favorite.


.:Navyspaz Forum:.

Celtic was actually the most experienced hunter of the 3. He just got over-confident against grid, & , we all knew what happened from there.
Scar on the other hand in my opinion was probably the least experienced pred of them all, the amount of times he relied on lex for crucial help was absolutely pathetic & made a mockery of the first 2 predators.

I completely agree with that

I dunno I would think Scar might of still been very skilled when he was confidend. He killed a face hugger and a Drone with out even looking and with a shuriken. Plus he took a Queen on and with a little help from Lex they made it a draw. He did have some desent moments and some bad times but I think it kinda balanced out a bit.

P.S. Anderson still screwed up big time.lol. :P



.:MESSAGE BOARD, RPG RULES & INFORMATION:.

I think he was tied in skill with Celtic. Except, he was more skilled in stealth, in my opinion. Celtic just charged right in on them(the humans), trying to scan Sabastian when he could of done that with his cloak on from a distance; Scar still revealed himself a few times, but he fixed it properly, like cloaking and jumping, throwing a rock to somewhere else, stuff like that. And I think in that one scene Lex didn't notice him right in back of her until after a few minutes he got there. Possibly more. Or was Celtic doing something else? Sorry if I'm wrong.

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i agree with stalker and katam

in space no one can Hear you scream

well this isnt really andersons screw up because it wasnt his idea, as the idea apperred in aliens vs predator (in the first few issues), i suppose he was just trying to intergrate the comics and film better but yes the idea is a load of bull
and doesnt make any sense


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